Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

And im done:3b: its bad enough i do this on a daily basis and now i have to discuss this process with one of my favorite hobbies. Oh brother. makes it less enjoyable. lol..whos the little kid?

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

So I guess if someone puts a bullet in your brain but doesn't fully comprehend the muzzle velocity, ballistic coefficient, density of bone vs. lead and the full biologic effect of head wound then you won't be dead?


If you guys want to debate the science, go ahead. We have some real-world empirical evidence that has convince the majority of car nuts on this site. Even I've gotten enough data to believe that the combination of a smaller balancer with our crappy oil pump gears is a bad combination (especially for manual trannys without the torque converter to help dampen the issue) and I'm the guy with over 100K miles on SLP 2-valve pulleys.

If you don't want to believe it without a scientific explanation, to ahead and play russian roulette with your motor. I'm sure if the oil pump grenades we'll never hear about it.

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

Let's have a drink to the flat earth society. I'll send you all some post cards in my travels around this spherical earth.

Signed,
Columbus

lol.. I couldnt resist...

Tony

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

do whatever the hell you want and in a few weeks we'll see one of those "wtf, my motor sneezed and locked up" threads...

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

Look, all i ask for is substantial evidence that has been documented! Before a conclusion can be drawn you must evaluate its findings! why is that hard to comprehend here? read this and maybe you'll understand what i mean.

Scientific method refers to the body of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge. It is based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning. A scientific method consists of the collection of data through observation and experimentation, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses.

Although procedures vary from one field of inquiry to another, identifiable features distinguish scientific inquiry from other methodologies of knowledge. Scientific researchers propose hypotheses as explanations of phenomena, and design experimental studies to test these hypotheses. These steps must be repeatable in order to predict dependably any future results. Theories that encompass wider domains of inquiry may bind many hypotheses together in a coherent structure. This in turn may help form new hypotheses or place groups of hypotheses into context.

Among other facets shared by the various fields of inquiry is the conviction that the process must be objective to reduce a biased interpretation of the results. Another basic expectation is to document, archive and share all data and methodology so it is available for careful scrutiny by other scientists, thereby allowing other researchers the opportunity to verify results by attempting to reproduce them. This practice, called full disclosure, also allows statistical measures of the reliability of these data to be established.

This is only one of the many methods I use to find things unequivocal.

In some weird way there is a resemblance here with animal farm. Some of you are easily convinced and believe everything you read. With not one person looking for an alternative to this "dilemma". It shows lack of intellect and the lack to see if there is more than 1 answer. Im done. Theres no point in arguing with any of you people because it doesnt get us any closer to our destination. So i stand by and say "this is still in the beginning stages and needs to be confirmed with testing, reliability, and reporting." have a good day to those with and without UDP's and do as you please.

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

:CHEERS: seriously my last post on this matter. lmao

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

:23: :23: :23: ignorance is bliss huh

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

Well professor, there is an alternative. In fact there are several.

Don't use smaller, aftermarket balancers.
Replace your oil pump gears with billet.
Do both.

I have opinions from well-known engine builders and from a product manager at Ford that broken oil pump gears are a problem, both with OE and aftermarket balancers. Smaller diameter balancers are believed to increase the risk somewhat. That's far from what I would consider an ignorant stance. In fact I'd consider it a well-informed perspective.

I don't have full engineering and testing data. But I don't have that for any other mod I put on the car either. I just use what seems to work for people whose opinion I respect. As far as I'm concerned, expecting a consumer to require this kind of data before making a purchase is rediculous.

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

"Now on to the next topic of discussion, I want to tell you all about the Tornado Air. According to a well known mechanic named Sam Memmolo, co-host of Two Guys Garage, he supports the product. Clearly this is an indication of the validity and worthiness of the product.

Also, please don't complicate this discussion with statistics or request of any demonstrable proof. That's quite ridiculous because you would be questioning the word of a highly respected mechanic who has his own TV show. Surely one wouldn't be that bold? Think about all the kind folks that Sam has helped over the years with their car troubles. You might hurt Sam's feelings and he'll stop his TV show and won't help us with our problems any more--only a b@stard would try such a thing! Have I mentioned only a fool would question Sam? Oh yes I did, anyways...

In addition to that supporting evidence, I also offer further proof whereby the product was tested at a CARB recognized lab demonstrating an average increase of 1 to 2mpg. Again, please don't question the test methods because you would be questioning the results from a CARB recognized lab. Only a fool would do that!

Also, did I mention Sam's a great guy and would help anyone? Only a jerk would question him. We all know he's got more knowledge in one hair folicle than the sum of all people who ever lived aggregated and multiplied by a factor of 1,000,000. Therefore questioning Sam's opinion is a sure sign of how feeble minded you are. But anyways, back to the topic...."

In all seriousness, that characterization very well represents some of the positions I have seen taken on this topic. As ridiculous as the above scenario sounds, there are many parallels to some of the arguments I've seen made on the topic of underdrive pullies.

Tony

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

The determining factor between the science versus real-life arguement is that science does not use rev-happy, crappy drivers as test subjects, but rather assumes the drivers are perfectly nutty old men and lead-footed youngsters(I) who bought this car to push it to the limits. The engine is built with that in mind, and an attempt to disrupt how the internals function is plain ol' stupid.

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

Underdrive pullies are bad enough sad!



LS

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

Alright, now that I posted my fictional exchange about the Tornado Air. Here's the thread from July of 2006 where I was burned at the stake on the corral for calling Underdrive pullies being responsible for oil pump gear failure an Internet Myth. Boy was it a fun exchange...

http://www.corral.net/forums/showthr...=internet+myth

It's funny how history repeats itself, eh? Humans are definitely creatures of habit... lol

Tony

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

I sat and absorbed every page of information on that forum and yet they gave you the same lame excuse with no proof (oh theres that word again). The answers that were drawn up were just sad. Especially coming from a well known "respected" engine builder.

You bestow a solid point LXH89 with that fictional story you posted. Makes you wonder, right?

"An engineer speculating without having definitive proof and testing to corroborate is no better than my grandma speculating as to the cause. Sure, it's probable but no reason to throw it out like it's fact." :LAUGH:

This is exactly why it shouldn't be considered a valid statement.

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

Lets not get violent now fellas. This is only a dispute. I believe we've evolved and learned how to communicate efficiently without disregard towards one another, right?

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

Bill's a good guy. He's smart enough to recognize the points being made. I know he's teasing... he likes stirring the pot to see what happens for entertainment.

I mean, don't those Naval nuclear engineers have to be smart? Don't hold it against him that at night time he glows. It's not his fault.. :)

Tony

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

okay.

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

:12: ...lol

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

you been smokin killer dro? :smokin: :23:

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

The only reason anyone would argue the case for underdrive pulleys is if they got off on arguing for the sake of arguing or, if they or someone they know has a vested financial interest. Nobody here has the time, resources or desire to put a set of pullies through a 10 point failure analysy. Making decisions without knowing every detail is what grown ups have to do every day. We cant be experts in every field so we rely on experts.

People have measured Steeda pullies and found them to be out of round. People have swapped from Steeda's to other brands and noticed reduced vibration from the engine. And Steeda underdrive pulleys have been the most logical culprit in a series of oil pump failures. Anybody who needs a 10 point failure analysys to disuade them from using Steedas has been hit one to many times with the stupid stick.

Were not sending men to the moon, were simply trying to decide if an extra 5 horsepower is worth risking the destruction or our engine when several comparable, but clearly safe options exist. Do we REALLY need to build a case defending Steeda pullies?

Todd

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

Doesn't he get paid to make that show? And wouldn't somebody benefit from paying him to say something works, whether it did or not? Some people like to watch those TV evangelicals too, send us your money and we'll make sure you get into heaven... I don't believe them either... Maybe i'm the fool :soapbox:

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

I know this is a little late in posting... but this is a subject I've done a LOT of research on.

...and I have a very simple answer to why you don't hear much about the negatives of UD pulleys.

So many people swear by them, just like people swear by K&N, etc... but how often do you hear anything negative about them? And for the negative side effects, why don't you hear much about the negatives?

Because people spend a lot of money on such small mods, they don't want to openly admit they made a bad choice. Case in point: My K&N SUCKS. Literally and figuratively. It's not the best aftermarket CAI you can buy. I immediately started experiencing issues with stalling after installing it. Some other forum members here have talked about it. But I'm certain there are a larger number of people out there that refuse to say anything bad about it. They'll swear by it, knowing full well they've purchased garbage, just as I have.

As for the positives mentioned... ironically, the only things I see are an occasional honest opinion about how much of a gain someone got out of the install. And of course the unGodly amount of blasphemous overexaggerations of gains that only a supercharger install could rival.

Even with other bolt-ons, I'm sorry, but the gains aren't going to be multiplied. An intake spacer gaining you 4 HP isn't going to multiply your 3 HP gain from UD pulleys to 12 HP. You might get 7, and woohoo.

People are entirely too stubborn to admit that some things simply aren't worth it. Since they've spent money on it, they try to convince other people to spend money on it. If someone duped you into spending $300 on a bag of garbage, I'm sure you'd feel better about yourself if someone else did the same thing. I know I'd be thinking, "Thank God I'm not the only one in the world who made a bad choice."

Bottom line... a lot of the people on this forum have been at this with these particular cars since they first started shipping 'em out over 5 years ago. If they advise against doing something to it, I'm pretty sure their level of experiences with these matters is worth taking into serious consideration over false "scientific" statistics (due to consumer misinformation based on shame).