Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

Did you call them to verify?

How do you know it is for Mach 1, when it states GT/Cobra?

Let us know. I might get one to replace the MCH-1158 I have been running.

Thanks

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

it also doesnt mention anything about the 04's just 96-03

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

ummm... the 1158 says not for mach1.. ive read that the waterpump change in 00-01 or something so 1158 wont fit a mach1 and this was the other march pulley that states 03 cobra which should have same waterpump as us. im confused

http://www.jegs.com/i/March-Performa.../1158/10002/-1

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

Had to put in an order with March a couple hours ago...

While waiting, I remembered this thread.

Anyhow, the MCH-1176 is the old one.....the MCH-1158 and the MCH-1176 are the same part....just changed part #'s. MCH-1158 is the old MCH-1176....

Still not for a Mach 1. Could it be used on a Mach 1? I am going to use mine on the Mach engine that is about to go in my car. I am a firm believer in them.:smokin:

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

I dont care what he thinks about them, nor anyone else on the intrawebs.

Never had a problem, hopefully never will. Even if I do, I will still use them. My odds on MANY different set-ups are probably still better then most people who DO have problems.

Did I mention, I am not a fan of the complete oil system design on these engines? I think I'll just blame Ford. Now go tell everyone!

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

:23: I agree with you. I think its funny some certain people go on and on about things in a negative way yet those people never seem to explain in detail why he/she believes that. Just adds more BS to the pot I guess? :confused:

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

Eh, bashing on March as a company because of something you heard is kinda silly. Then not explaining yourself and simply saying "ask someone else what they think....WINK" is even more juvenile.

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

Bill is trying to tell you, many years ago.....he amazingly discovered something.

He came to the conclusion that no manufacturers made an underdrive crank pulley (dampener) for a Mach 1.

He then found out that Paul S at PHP used a set on a Mach 1.....and had engine problems. I actually think I remember Paul doing a test on a Mach 1 years ago....running like high 11's with a couple bolt ons and some slicky poos. Maybe it was in a magazine? Didnt he use March pulleys on that car? I dont remember. I know they only gained a couple horse....but he tested it after he also installed gears and built rear I think.

Anyhow, I have seen low compression on a low mileage stock 4V, I have seen broken pistons in a stock tuned stock modular, I have seen a handful of people break the oil pump with stock dampener/stock flywheel-clutch.

It is a risk we take.....and I have pretty good odds I guess!

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

****...I love my memory!

http://www.mach1registry.org/forums/...ght=paul+march

http://www.mustang50magazine.com/fea...h_1/index.html

I was pretty close!

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

Hmmmm, no engine failure there! :confused:

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

He doesnt have proof on paper, and not many will. (for most everything)

He is just trying to help out. He has been around some people who have had the problems, and has seen it. It might be true, probably is.

I personally, tell customers not to run them. But I run the **** out of them, I want every last hp/tq in my cars. (I build simple set-ups, so every bit of power helps)

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

He said there has been proof shown, so I'd like to see it.

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

1) I don't post my phone number over the internet.

2) I'd much rather you post proof here for others to see and learn.

But thanks for the offer, I'm sure Paul is a great guy to talk with.

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

I honestly don't want anything to do with this argument, but I just find it interesting how some people who are arguing about how these products haven't hurt their engine and their engine didn't een come out of a Mach, it came out of a 2001 Cobra. Last time I checked that's a different engine for the parts to be specific for... just saying.
I thought this thread would help me make a decision, but since you guys are all too busy bickering over who's right and who heard what, I'll just have to get my information somewhere else.

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

I just bought my Mach last week. I cant seem to find a pic of stock pulleys...yes I searched. Can someone post of pic up of the stock pulleys bc I ve read enough that I dont want to chance UDP. And this is my first Ford, so I dont know what the stock pulleys look like.

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

the balancer will prolly be a sorta black with specks of rust lol.

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

:23: I did look. The car was garage kept, only has 23k miles. You can almost eat off the motor, I dont see any rust on any of the pulleys. It does have a motorcraft belt on it which could be a good sign. And if Manny stole them from you, you should put Manny in the tool box too. :)

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

To put things into perspective, I've been following this topic since 2001. I can plainly state that there has been oil pump failures related to Steeda and other small diameter dampers that are too numerous to count.

Let's talk about why this happens with Cobra’s and Machs and not SOHC Mustang GT’s, 5.0’s, Camaro’s and everything else that is not a high revving DOHC Ford.

1. First are the fragile, powdered metal oil pump gears. They simply cannot take a lot of abuse.
   
2. Second is the fact that 4 camshafts and all the chains required to run them create a lot of harmonics in the crankshaft. That’s a problem.
   
3. Third is the steel crankshaft made by Kellog. It’s the kind of crank hot rodders dream of but it’s super rigid and does not absorb harmonics like a cast crank will.
   
4. Fourth is the internally balanced short block that is more susceptible to engine harmonics than an externally balanced setup.
   
5. Fifth is the manual transmission. Gear banging and no fluid filled torque converter.
   
6. Finally, the death blow for the powdered metal gears: High RPM. The DOHC in stock form performs best when shifted at the factory designated red line, 6800 RPM. Those are some pretty serious revolutions and there are a lot of harmonics created.

All these things combine to make the Ford DOHC oil pump gears uniquely susceptible to failure. As such, the oil pump gears can fail under a variety of conditions that increase crankshaft harmonics. Over revving, forced induction and yes, inferior dampers that do not adequately control harmonics.

Here is a who’s who of the nation’s top modular engine builders that recommend avoiding small size dampers like Steeda on DOHC Ford engines:

Boss 330 Racing. Al Pappito

Modular Performance. John and Mike Tymenski

Accufab Racing. John Mihovetz. NHRA AA/AT World Record Holder

Livernois Motorsports

Pauls High Performance

Sean Hyland Motorsports

VT Engines




Here is small sample of the things they’ve had to say about small diameter dampers:















So let’s review:

If you own a Ford DOHC engine built from 1996 forward, and you rev it over 6500 RPM, every major modular engine builder in the country agrees that it is foolish to run a small diameter damper.

In addition to improper design resulting in numerous engine failures, small diameter dampers have been shown on several occasions to be out of round showing excessive run out when measured with a dial indicator. This is not only poor design but poor manufacturing and quality control. This probably contributes to the vibration many have felt at higher RPM with aftermarket, under drive dampers.



Some guidelines established by the professionals who build these unique engines are as follows:

1. The stock damper with stock powdered metal gears is good to 7,000 RPM.
   
2. The stock damper with billet gears can operate to 7,400 RPM but is not advisable.
   
3. Anything over 7,200 RPM should be running billet gears and an ATI damper.
   
4. A small diameter damper shouldn’t be run in any combination over 6,500 RPM. Billet gears will hold up with a small damper but the harmonics beat up the crankshaft drive pretty good and eventually something will fail whether the pump, a camshaft gear or the crank trigger.

Finally, let’s address some of the arguments presented by under drive, small diameter damper proponents:



Argument 1: “Show me proof!”

Answer: Idiot.



Argument 2: “I’ve run a Steeda small damper aggressively for a long time and have had no problems”

Answer: That’s not impossible. Varying production tolerances will make some oil pump gears more durable than others. Most people don’t want to find out the hard way.



Argument 3: We risk engine damage any time we install an aftermarket performance part on our cars.

Answer: In some cases that may be true but for the most part it simply is not. H-beam rods, forged pistons, hardened oil pump gears, ATI damper, billet oil pump gears, intake and exhaust mods. The list goes on and on. Even things like nitrous and supercharging are relatively safe when applied properly. And the inherent risk in their use is a little more tempting when we’re talking 100+ horsepower gains VS 3 - 5 hp for an under drive damper.



Argument 4: I’ve seen oil pumps fail with stock dampers.

Answer: Sure, it happens. The oil pumps are a marginal design from the factory. Increasing RPM beyond the factory limited 6800 RPM or installing power adders (nitrous, blowers, turbo) are just a couple examples of things that can increase engine harmonics. That is not a reason to install an inferior product that further jeopardizes your engine.



Argument 5: Most oil pump failures can be traced to improper damper installation.

Answer: Not true. What that statement is basically saying is that all the professional engine builders listed above don’t know how to install a damper. I don’t have to point out how ridiculous that is. Besides, it’s one bolt (new) torqued properly. Not rocket science. As a side note TheBlkMach1 had his damper installed by Steeda at their facility. He experienced pump failure with no other contributing factors.



Argument 6: Oil pump failures only occur on race engines or engines that are “over revved”.

Answer: Depends on your definition of “over revved”. Al Pappito plainly states that a small damper engine should not be revved over 6500 RPM. That’s a LONG way from “over revving” a DOHC engine that the factory designed to run at 6800 RPM for hours on end.



Argument 7: Steedas website says they worked with Ford to achieve the proper dampening characteristics.

Answer: That is the standard damper statement they’ve always used. It is meaningless. Fords Technology Transfer Program is available to anyone wanting to build an aftermarket part for a Ford. It can be used to obtain dimensional information as well as many other parameters.



Argument 8: Steeda has a new damper that is as heavy as the stock unit.

Answer: Weight is only one of several factors involved in producing a properly designed damper. The way they’ve distributed a bunch of the weight way out in front does not instill confidence. It's pretty tough to throw caution to the wind and blindly trust this company just because they've covertly admitted to marketing an inferior piece by completely redesigning it and quietly offering it in place of the original unit. Try calling them to ask about it. They wont admit to a re-design. Liability. It only took them 10 years. They haven’t even bothered making any claims regarding improved ability to control harmonics, let alone admitting to a re-design. Guinea pig it for them? No thank you.



In the end it boils down to whether or not 5 hp is worth the risk. Especially when nearly equal performance gains can be had by installing Cobra R pulley’s on the alternator and power steering pump. Even more by adding an electric water pump.

Todd

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

Good post Todd.

The difference between me and the people you listed.....I run UD's religiously......but will not, and have not ever sold a set to a customer with a 4V.

Some of the people/names you mentioned, don't run them.....but will sell them all day long. :3amin:

Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.
 

I just took out a March pulley off my car if anyone wants to buy it.

Part #1158

It was the cause of a rattle that I had, BUT it's inconclusive as to whether the excessive RTV was the cause or if the culprit was the pulley itself.

Thread:

http://www.svtperformance.com/forums...ll-fuggup.html

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/9451/dsc1650small.jpg

http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/2115/pulleybad.jpg

PM me for price