new car break in period

[2k4mach]

Originally Posted by shadowmaker

First of all, dont be so sensitive. This is a mature board, its not the corral or svt. 99% of the disagreements on this board are civil. Even if we dont agree, we can agree to disagree.

I wasnt saying I didnt believe what you said, I was referring to it being BS over a cai. Now that you ve explained further, I m moving willing to believe its possible.




Theres what you said in your first post. It read that ANY cai would cause problems. Notice I said in my post that if the pipe was the same size.



Then you posted this about one from Airaid which more than likely has a bigger pipe bc it flows more.

Intake systems now are pretty good even coming from the factory. And most people realize the 20-30 hp from the manfac of the cai is inflated.

With technology the way it is, even with a bigger pipe, the computer should see this and make an adjustment. If it goes over the amount the MAF can measure, it should be set to cause a SES light. I understand it must not be but it should. Or does and these owners ignored it?

But you say its a A/F problem. Again, the computer should adjust for that. The bigger question should be, why isnt it? With the increase in air its going to go leaner, so once it goes too lean, is a SES getting set?

As far as not removing before bringing it in, did they buy used? Maybe they threw the stock one away or sold it.

how is the computer going to adjust the a/f when it goes off the base fuel map and maf transfer function in open loop mode aka WOT with no input from the 02 sensors

[ASH302]

Originally Posted by shadowmaker

At best the CAI is going to gain MAYBE 5 hp without a tune....MAYBE. A recalibration is not needed, since the computer does this automatically. If it didnt, it would have to be recalibrated everytime we went from summer to winter.

If the diameter of the pipe going into the MAF is the same size as stock, and I pretty sure it is, its just not going to make more than single digit increases.


My guess is something else was installed on these cars and removed when they were brought in for service work. I would guess a bad tune. But no way a CAI caused the motors to burn down.

Originally Posted by CO Mack

Here's what Ford says:



It has nothing to do with HP, it's A/F.

Honestly, I couldn't care less if you believe me Shadowmaker. I am trying to help others realize this is a real potential problem, somewhat specific to the new Mustangs, that should be heeded. If you get a CAI kit that says it requires a tune, IT REQUIRES A TUNE.

Airaid even engineered two different CAI kits for the new 5.0- one that requires no tune, and one that flows better and called "race only" if you are willing to tune. They tell you right in the instructions, you can damage the engine if you don't:

http://www.airaid.com/InstallationPDF/450-303.pdf

you are right it is diff with the newer mustang, get on american muscle web site some don't have where you need a tune and others do, its a whole new ball game and you have to think outside the box. just because its one way for the mach doesn't mean its the same for the newer mustangs.

ASh

[shadowmaker]

Originally Posted by txmach302

you are right it is diff with the newer mustang, get on american muscle web site some don't have where you need a tune and others do, its a whole new ball game and you have to think outside the box. just because its one way for the mach doesn't mean its the same for the newer mustangs.

ASh

The ones needing the tune have a larger pipe, 3" vs 4 1/4". Which is a huge difference. Here's video from American muscle. http://www.americanmuscle.com/jlt-ca...rbonfiber.html

Some of the ones that dont require a tune that have a bigger pipe, come with a different MAF already calibrated for the CAI. If I read it right.

I wasnt referring to one thing based off of the Mach, I was basing it off cars in general. The difference in the pipe is causing the mustang to go extremely lean, which would have the same effect on the Mach. But how lean would be the question.

Putting a cai on a new mustang isnt going to destroy it. Putting certain ones on and not tuning, could.

[shadowmaker]

Originally Posted by 2k4mach

how is the computer going to adjust the a/f when it goes off the base fuel map and maf transfer function in open loop mode aka WOT with no input from the 02 sensors

Ok, so how would you know you have a lean condition? You can hook a lap top or programmer up to and it will measure it. How come the computer on the car cant do this? Thats what I meant by 'should'. With technology the way it is, how come theres no safeguard to set a light or shut the car down if it goes too lean?

If it still works like you re saying, its been that way for how long? A decade or more?

[2k4mach]

Originally Posted by shadowmaker

Ok, so how would you know you have a lean condition? You can hook a lap top or programmer up to and it will measure it. How come the computer on the car cant do this? Thats what I meant by 'should'. With technology the way it is, how come theres no safeguard to set a light or shut the car down if it goes too lean?

If it still works like you re saying, its been that way for how long? A decade or more?

how the **** does hooking a tuner or laptop show its lean? you cant just hook up a laptop and bam see the a/f, you need a wideband sensor, either a tailpipe sniffer on the dyno or a standalone unit in the car. the factory 02's are not wideband 02's and besides that if thats what your going by as soon as the car is in open loop they show whats commanded in the base fuel map.

[mikeracing]

Originally Posted by st0ck Mach 1

Thats what i have always understood, the rings are seated when its new. Me, I varied the driving for the first 500...granny then don garlits...granny then don garlits!!!! congrats on the new ride

i have never purchased a new car but everything gets driven in my cycle of john force then michael schumacher then john force...........

[shadowmaker]

Originally Posted by 2k4mach

how the **** does hooking a tuner or laptop show its lean? you cant just hook up a laptop and bam see the a/f, you need a wideband sensor, either a tailpipe sniffer on the dyno or a standalone unit in the car. the factory 02's are not wideband 02's and besides that if thats what your going by as soon as the car is in open loop they show whats commanded in the base fuel map.

Stop splitting hairs. Lap top, tuner, wide band whatever the **** you want to call, it can be done is my point. I know you dont just plug in a lap top and bam it shows it. I had a program for my Z28 that I installed on my lap top that showed all IAT temps, A/F, blah blah blah.

[2k4mach]

Originally Posted by shadowmaker

Stop splitting hairs. Lap top, tuner, wide band whatever the **** you want to call, it can be done is my point. I know you dont just plug in a lap top and bam it shows it. I had a program for my Z28 that I installed on my lap top that showed all IAT temps, A/F, blah blah blah.

Then quit posting such generic responses, some noob will come and read that and think he can just toss a laptop on and be good to go......

This forum has always been known for little to none of that crappy tech, just cause these jalopys are getting older doesn't mean the quality of tech should go to crap as well.


Sent from my iPad4 using Tapatalk

[ASH302]

Originally Posted by shadowmaker

The ones needing the tune have a larger pipe, 3" vs 4 1/4". Which is a huge difference. Here's video from American muscle. http://www.americanmuscle.com/jlt-ca...rbonfiber.html

Some of the ones that dont require a tune that have a bigger pipe, come with a different MAF already calibrated for the CAI. If I read it right.

I wasnt referring to one thing based off of the Mach, I was basing it off cars in general. The difference in the pipe is causing the mustang to go extremely lean, which would have the same effect on the Mach. But how lean would be the question.

Putting a cai on a new mustang isnt going to destroy it. Putting certain ones on and not tuning, could.

yes you are right, the ones with the bigger tubin need the tune
if you do the smaller one you won't need tune for the bigger tubin yes
we are agreein on the same thing lol we are on the same page now

ASh

[ASH302]

This thread has gone way off from what it was from , i started this for a friend and kinda myself. i already had what i was going to do for my peace of mind, but wanted to see what others had to say
pretty soon we will be on s/c or t/c and thats just a whole new deal there

ASh

[CO Mack]

Originally Posted by shadowmaker

First of all, dont be so sensitive. This is a mature board, its not the corral or svt. 99% of the disagreements on this board are civil. Even if we dont agree, we can agree to disagree.

I am not being sensitive, and I've been civil. I'm trying to keep people from hurting their cars after listening to people who don't know what they're talking about.

"let's agree to disagree"? This is not politics, there is an absolute right and a wrong here and it's important to get it right. "Advice" like yours has cost several people the engines in their 5.0s and led to Ford issuing a TSB. That's serious, and worthy of a strong response with facts.

Theres what you said in your first post. It read that ANY cai would cause problems. Notice I said in my post that if the pipe was the same size.

No, I said brother has replaced two engines from installs of a CAI without a recal and you called BS. Never did I use the word "any" nor was I specific about which kits.

With technology the way it is, even with a bigger pipe, the computer should see this and make an adjustment. If it goes over the amount the MAF can measure, it should be set to cause a SES light. I understand it must not be but it should. Or does and these owners ignored it?

But you say its a A/F problem. Again, the computer should adjust for that. The bigger question should be, why isnt it? With the increase in air its going to go leaner, so once it goes too lean, is a SES getting set?

As far as not removing before bringing it in, did they buy used? Maybe they threw the stock one away or sold it.

If you had read what Ford said in the post I put up rather than spending time trying to argue with me (and 2k4mach), and you understood how these systems work, you'd understand why a CAI can lean out and damage a new 5.0.

[shadowmaker]

First of all I didnt know I had to go into such in depth detail on my posts. But since that is the case, I will. Second of all, I didnt realize putting up a BS flag would butt hurt people on such a mature board, so I ll apologize. Third of all, I wasnt arguing. Actually, in some of my posts I was asking questions. Which got smart *** answers. The 'agree to disagree' was bout arguements in general, politic discussion are not allowed.


As far as advice I given none. Im by no means a noob, I m far from that. Dont care if you believe it or not. Do I know everything? NO. Do I make mistakes? yes. And have no problem admitting when I m wrong. I will be the first to admit, I am rusty on my knowledge. This is the first muscle car that I have owned that I havent modding, not even a KN drop in filter. But I do know the basic operation of the cars. I had a supercharged car, that I modded, changed pulleys on, and played with the computer settings. 50k miles of supercharged power with no problems. Any body that knows s/c cars, knows that you can go lean and if you do and dont fix, youre screwed. So I understand A/F and rich/lean conditions.

When I first read your post, I misread it. I thought you were saying 'any' cai. I know you didnt say 'any', I misread. Which I tried to explain. I do understand how the cai works. Go back and read where I said if the pipe is bigger it can cause a lean condition. This new 5.0 motor is no different as far as thats concerned. Too much air and not enough fuel can make any car lean out, even a carbed one.

The TSB you posted I say is BS, that is not a TSB from Ford. If it is, I ll stand corrected. Please provide the TSB #. Ford did issue a TSB about tunes voiding warranty and changes made to the power train. Reason for the tune voiding is bc #8 is set from the factory to run rich. Tuners were leaning out that cylinder, causing engine failure. But no TSB strictly for a CAI. Again, please provide the #.


As for the 2 motors being melted down bc of a CAI alone. The owners either did a bad tune or ignored the SES light, continued to run the car that way, or both. With the SES light for the lean condition, the cars run like crap, wont idle properly, loss of power, run worse etc etc. If thats the case and the owner continued to run it, its their fault. I did misread the part about needing a tune. Thats what happens when I read and watch TV at the same time.

There has been no engine damage done by a CAI on the new mustangs that were not the owners fault, see above. If the CAI causes a lean condition, the computer DOES set a SES, just like I said it should. That code is set by the A/F that is measured by the computer, just like I said it should. They can and do go lean even when not under WOT. There is even a limp mode but not sure at what point that occurs and how much damage is done.

There is a procedure that has to be done for the computer to learn the CAI if lean conditions are detected and to fix idle problems. Some are fixed this way, some require a tune, even if the CAI originally doesnt suggest needing it. Gains from the CAI alone have been somewhere around 4-5 hp and those are some what disputed. Even with the bigger pipe, the big gains come mainly from a tune. There are 1000s, and 1000s of CAI installed on the new mustangs without tunes that are having no problems. Actually, a lot of them will tell you to spend the money on something else bc the gains are just not there. There is a discusion on MAF readings and something with automatic tranny shift points.


As far as the lap top comment, I didnt know I was dealing with noobs and needed to explain in detail. If supposedly some noob did read what I wrote, what would they gain? How would they hook it up? If they hooked it up, what would they see? Where in my comment did I ever say, 'hook up a lap top and youre good to go'? Dont see any crappy advice. I was actually asking a question. But again, that was someone splitting hairs and trying to be a smart ***. But I m a big boy and didnt lose any sleep over it.