2003-04 Mach 1 Registry Owners Club  


Go Back   2003-04 Mach 1 Registry Owners Club > "GO" Discussions > Engine & Drivetrain (Including trans & rear axles)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-16-2009, 06:10 PM   #151
305HP
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Penn.
Posts: 390
Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tmhutch View Post
If you honestly want to understand this topic than you should take the time to read this thread. There is a lot of good information that will help you make a better informed decision. As to your point about engine builders, understand that it's not that they just dont use them, it's that every respected modular engine builder says NOT to use them. They advise AGAINST it. They say DONT do it. It has nothing to do with discounts or sponsorship. It is simply shared expertise coming from the people who know best.

I've been in this thread sine Page 1. Ford them selfs use under driven pulleys on the CobraR, and an under driven Crank pulley on all the CobraJet and Supersnake motors.

I haven't seen a single case of a oil pump failing that wasn't on a car that was over rev'd or wasn't on an engine that wasn't used for heavy track use. No ones shown a single daily drive/weekend racer that has had issues. All you hear is talk about engines that were built to hit 8000RPM, or people reving 7500+ on their stock pump having issues. I coant find a single thread about a person staying at 7200 or lower and having issues.

I've asked for YEARS for a thread of a weekend racer or daily driver that has had issues and was proven to be the crank pulley and NO ONE has shown me one. If anything they have been PROVEN to be safe on the street with how FEW have broken anything vs how many stock pulley s have broken pumps. Even the cars creator couldn't say it was the pulleys due to how many stock ones have broken.


So lease spread all the FUD you want, in the end pulleys breaking pumps ONLY applies to cars that are often reving past redline
__________________
Mach1 - manual
90MM LMAF, PHP intake spacer, BBK catted X, Borla Stinger cat-back, March crank pulley, CobraR PS/alt/WP pulleys, FRPP 4.10, JLT RAI, SCT
305HP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2009, 06:12 PM   #152
tmhutch
4v>3v>2v
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 727
Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mach1Marauder View Post
It falls on deaf ears.
I guess you're right.
tmhutch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2009, 06:21 PM   #153
305HP
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Penn.
Posts: 390
Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

What can I say, no ones shown me any proof that I'm wrong. You would think with all the mod motors here, corral, SVTP, and other stang sites ONE person could show me a daily that broke, nut no one can.
__________________
Mach1 - manual
90MM LMAF, PHP intake spacer, BBK catted X, Borla Stinger cat-back, March crank pulley, CobraR PS/alt/WP pulleys, FRPP 4.10, JLT RAI, SCT
305HP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2009, 06:24 PM   #154
na svt
Registered User
 
na svt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: beavercreek, oh
Posts: 4,695
Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

it's not just the issue of oil pumps breaking. It has been said by one builder that engines with small diameter dampeners exhibit abnormal wear wear the oil pump gears contact the crank. I just tore down an engine that had a piggy back setup on it and the crank, which is cast, showed no wear. However, this maybe an anomoly, but I've not seen any wear on the engines that I've taken apart.

There are a sh1tload of people on corral, svtp and mod fords that have small diameter dampeners. This is the only site where the vast majority of members don't recommend them.

Seriously, I know only a few people that have broken oil pump gears and about half ot them had a stock dampener.
na svt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2009, 06:57 PM   #155
rich1
AUTOMACHTIC
 
rich1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: RTP/ N.C.
Posts: 4,813
Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 305HP View Post
I've been in this thread sine Page 1. Ford them selfs use under driven pulleys on the CobraR, and an under driven Crank pulley on all the CobraJet and Supersnake motors.

I haven't seen a single case of a oil pump failing that wasn't on a car that was over rev'd or wasn't on an engine that wasn't used for heavy track use. No ones shown a single daily drive/weekend racer that has had issues. All you hear is talk about engines that were built to hit 8000RPM, or people reving 7500+ on their stock pump having issues. I coant find a single thread about a person staying at 7200 or lower and having issues.

I've asked for YEARS for a thread of a weekend racer or daily driver that has had issues and was proven to be the crank pulley and NO ONE has shown me one. If anything they have been PROVEN to be safe on the street with how FEW have broken anything vs how many stock pulley s have broken pumps. Even the cars creator couldn't say it was the pulleys due to how many stock ones have broken.


So lease spread all the FUD you want, in the end pulleys breaking pumps ONLY applies to cars that are often reving past redline
So what it really comes down to is the mis-use of a product... ..

1) Its ok to use UDs with an Automatic that has a lower red line.

2) UDs may be safe on a street car 5 -speed Manual as long as you dont
miss a gear or over-rev it.

3) Anyone using UDs for strickly racing should use what is told to them by their engine builder / tuner no matter what the name brand is. This info is important since they know the RPM used in the Motor build and the Tune settings !
__________________
UPGRADES...Tokico Illuminas Borla SS Catback , Steeda Underdrives , Strut Brace , HPM Lower K Brace , L /C Arms , U /C Arms , HPM PanHard Bar, K&N FRPK 2, GOODYEAR GT1 , MRT- H-Pipe , JLT VaporTraps , SLP-12'" Tips! , FRPP Shorty 1 5/8 Headers , Brembo D/S & PBR D/S Rotors ,FRPP Alum.DS ,Roys 3/8 Spacer , SVT Focus 255 pump SCTsw Chip PRO-DYNOjet NA 300.01hp /315tq (Auto) ,Innovate W/B ,Compucar Wet Kit (90jet) + Heater and E Gauge * 360 hp/385tq 12.5 -1/4 @112
rich1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2009, 07:39 PM   #156
2k4mach
LuLz
 
2k4mach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Cedar Park, TX
Posts: 19,294
Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

i dont even understand what the point of argueing over UDP's is anymore.

the information is READILY available for both sides of the fence.
__________________
11 Sterling gray GT500 coupe
08 Silver Z06 1058rwhp/1073rwt @ 15psi
14 Silver Q50S Vortech blown
04 DSG Mach 1 (stolen)
03 OW Mach 1 (sitting in a field rotting away)
2k4mach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2009, 07:55 PM   #157
tmhutch
4v>3v>2v
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 727
Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 305HP View Post
I've been in this thread sine Page 1. 1) Ford them selfs use under driven pulleys on the CobraR, and an under driven Crank pulley on all the CobraJet and Supersnake motors.

2) I haven't seen a single case of a oil pump failing that wasn't on a car that was over rev'd or wasn't on an engine that wasn't used for heavy track use. No ones shown a single daily drive/weekend racer that has had issues. All you hear is talk about engines that were built to hit 8000RPM, or people reving 7500+ on their stock pump having issues. I coant find a single thread about a person staying at 7200 or lower and having issues.

3) I've asked for YEARS for a thread of a weekend racer or daily driver that has had issues and was proven to be the crank pulley and NO ONE has shown me one. If anything they have been PROVEN to be safe on the street with how FEW have broken anything vs how many stock pulley s have broken pumps. Even the cars creator couldn't say it was the pulleys due to how many stock ones have broken.


So lease spread all the FUD you want, in the end pulleys breaking pumps ONLY applies to cars that are often reving past redline
1) Ford them selfs use under driven pulleys on the CobraR, and an under driven Crank pulley on all the CobraJet and Supersnake motors.

This is what I dont understand. You are either blatantly dis-honest or just poorly educated on the subject. I suspect the latter, and if that's the case you should express your opinion in a manner that admits limited knowledge on the subject. For those who read 305HP's statement and thought it meant something, let me clarify. The Cobra R used large accessory pullies, not a small diameter damper. Second, the CobraJet engine uses an Innovators West (same as an ATI) damper, part number M-6316-CJ, which is actually heavier, larger in diameter and provides superior damping qualities over the stock unit. It is not a small diameter unit. Not to mention, supercharged applications have no bearing on the subject at hand.



2) I haven't seen a single case of a oil pump failing that wasn't on a car that was over rev'd or wasn't on an engine that wasn't used for heavy track use.

Your limited experience means very little compared to the professionals who build engines every day. If you want proof, call them yourself. You might learn something.


3) I've asked for YEARS for a thread of a weekend racer or daily driver that has had issues and was proven to be the crank pulley and NO ONE has shown me one.

We cant help it if you havent paid attention. Nobody cares if you run a small damper, just dont try to convince the world that there is nothing to be concerned about.




Quote:
Originally Posted by na svt View Post
it's not just the issue of oil pumps breaking. It has been said by one builder that engines with small diameter dampeners exhibit abnormal wear wear the oil pump gears contact the crank. 1) I just tore down an engine that had a piggy back setup on it and the crank, which is cast, showed no wear. However, this maybe an anomoly, but I've not seen any wear on the engines that I've taken apart.

1) There are a sh1tload of people on corral, svtp and mod fords that have small diameter dampeners. This is the only site where the vast majority of members don't recommend them.

3) Seriously, I know only a few people that have broken oil pump gears and about half ot them had a stock dampener.

1) I just tore down an engine that had a piggy back setup on it and the crank, which is cast, showed no wear.

Correct me if I'm wrong but a piggyback unit uses a stock sized/weight damper. The piggy back portion handles the under drive element of the unit. Additionally, the cast crank absorbs more torsional vibration and is a bit more forgiving in what it transmits to the oil pump gears.



1) There are a sh1tload of people on corral, svtp and mod fords that have small diameter dampeners. This is the only site where the vast majority of members don't recommend them.

I disagree, the same conversations take place but at a lower incidence because the bulk of the information was disseminated years ago and most people have already learned to avoid small dampers.


3) Seriously, I know only a few people that have broken oil pump gears and about half ot them had a stock dampener.[/QUOTE]


Here again we are comparing extremely limited experience with that of industry vetrans. The stock damper isnt perfect nor is it indestructable. If a person wants indestructable they should go with ATI or Innovators West but no one should take a step backward from the stock unit, it is border line as it is.


It's ridiculous to continue having this argument. If it's not because you guys just like conflict than I cant understand what it could possibly be. For what reason would anyone bother to continue this? From my side of the argument I am helping prevent the needless destruction of some regular Joe's engine and I have every industry expert on my side.

You guys on the other side are defending what? The right of a huge corporation to sell faulty products with no accountability or sense of responsibility for the damage they cause? It's not like you are correcting false or incorrect information. The facts are REALLY simple. Small diameter dampers do not adequitly control harmonics on a Ford DOHC engine.
tmhutch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2009, 07:56 PM   #158
04machwon22
FOR SALE
 
04machwon22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Bel Air, Maryland
Posts: 733
Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2k4mach View Post
i dont even understand what the point of argueing over UDP's is anymore.

the information is READILY available for both sides of the fence.
enough said
__________________
2004 Azure Blue Mach 1 with every bolt on-SOLD

2014 Mustang GT 5.0- Bone Stock... for now
04machwon22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2009, 09:28 PM   #159
Scott McClure
Mach1 member
 
Scott McClure's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: East Haven, CT
Posts: 3,349
Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2k4mach View Post
i dont even understand what the point of argueing over UDP's is anymore.

the information is READILY available for both sides of the fence.
That's exactly right. You want to put them on, go ahead. Frankly for the gains one gets out of them it's just foolish. Money should be spent elsewhere.
__________________
2011 Mustang GT Grabber Blue Automatic


2003 Mach 1 Whipple 2.3 718 rwhp 735 rwtq @25 psi SOLD
Scott McClure is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2009, 09:47 PM   #160
mach007
Registered User
 
mach007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Palm Springs, Cali
Posts: 291
Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mach1Marauder View Post
Really ...Wow!

Tell me, WHY did you buy those?
They were on the car when it came into my possession.
mach007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2009, 10:06 PM   #161
na svt
Registered User
 
na svt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: beavercreek, oh
Posts: 4,695
Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott McClure View Post
That's exactly right. You want to put them on, go ahead. Frankly for the gains one gets out of them it's just foolish. Money should be spent elsewhere.
I got 11rwhp for only $112 dollars; probably my best bang for the buck mod.
na svt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2009, 11:47 PM   #162
ModularSpeed
Mach Underhood
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: FL
Posts: 1,677
Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

I know 2 people who used piggybacks....and didnt even put the damper back on!!!!! LOL

1 of them was a 2V h/c/i car.....ran for about 2.5 years, realized he didnt put it on.....installed it and it has been running great for the last 5 years
(sees 7500 rpm)

The other, a local guy here....VERY popular on the boards....has one of the fastest bolt-on 4V's......and he ran it that way for about 2 years I think, 100 or so track passes to 7k rpm. Ford replaced the engine under warranty, all I'll say. lol
__________________
Stock 4.6 4V, Cobra Cammed: 11.63@117.84 - N/A
T45 / 4.56 / Drag Radials - N/A 4V Video
ModularSpeed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2009, 02:00 AM   #163
Scott McClure
Mach1 member
 
Scott McClure's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: East Haven, CT
Posts: 3,349
Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

Quote:
Originally Posted by na svt View Post
I got 11rwhp for only $112 dollars; probably my best bang for the buck mod.
Wow, way to set the world on fire .And you did back to back pulls after installing the pullies right?
__________________
2011 Mustang GT Grabber Blue Automatic


2003 Mach 1 Whipple 2.3 718 rwhp 735 rwtq @25 psi SOLD
Scott McClure is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2009, 01:02 PM   #164
na svt
Registered User
 
na svt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: beavercreek, oh
Posts: 4,695
Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott McClure View Post
Wow, way to set the world on fire .And you did back to back pulls after installing the pullies right?
Yes, back to back dynos. It's very common to see gains of 8-10rwhp with the March fluid dampener/wp and alt pulleys.
na svt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2009, 07:57 AM   #165
Mach916
Registered User
 
Mach916's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Sacramento, Ca
Posts: 1,044
Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

they got the new march crank pulley made for the machs now.. if anyone would like to know

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MCH-1176/
Mach916 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2009, 08:02 AM   #166
Mach916
Registered User
 
Mach916's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Sacramento, Ca
Posts: 1,044
Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

Quote:
Originally Posted by na svt View Post
Yes, back to back dynos. It's very common to see gains of 8-10rwhp with the March fluid dampener/wp and alt pulleys.
can we see the dyno charts??
Mach916 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2009, 07:01 PM   #167
ModularSpeed
Mach Underhood
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: FL
Posts: 1,677
Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mach916 View Post
they got the new march crank pulley made for the machs now.. if anyone would like to know

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MCH-1176/

Did you call them to verify?

How do you know it is for Mach 1, when it states GT/Cobra?

Let us know. I might get one to replace the MCH-1158 I have been running.

Thanks
__________________
Stock 4.6 4V, Cobra Cammed: 11.63@117.84 - N/A
T45 / 4.56 / Drag Radials - N/A 4V Video
ModularSpeed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2009, 07:21 PM   #168
bababuschka
8-ball
 
bababuschka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: charleston, sc
Posts: 401
Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

it also doesnt mention anything about the 04's just 96-03
__________________
"..a true hotrodder would'nt be content untill he had created a car so violent, so totally sick that the act of dropping the hammer would result in instant death. Anything less results in the need to go faster. " Tony DeFeo

"Coming soon to asphault near you...Fully built rear end"

MGW Short Throw
JLT RAI
Borla Cat-back
NX 100 shot-Wet
1/2 Intake Spacer
17x9 F/17x10.5 R Black Bullets w/ Chrome lip- NTO5's out back
bababuschka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2009, 06:38 AM   #169
Mach916
Registered User
 
Mach916's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Sacramento, Ca
Posts: 1,044
Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ModularSpeed View Post
Did you call them to verify?

How do you know it is for Mach 1, when it states GT/Cobra?

Let us know. I might get one to replace the MCH-1158 I have been running.

Thanks
ummm... the 1158 says not for mach1.. ive read that the waterpump change in 00-01 or something so 1158 wont fit a mach1 and this was the other march pulley that states 03 cobra which should have same waterpump as us. im confused

http://www.jegs.com/i/March-Performa.../1158/10002/-1
Mach916 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2009, 02:46 PM   #170
ModularSpeed
Mach Underhood
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: FL
Posts: 1,677
Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

Had to put in an order with March a couple hours ago...

While waiting, I remembered this thread.

Anyhow, the MCH-1176 is the old one.....the MCH-1158 and the MCH-1176 are the same part....just changed part #'s. MCH-1158 is the old MCH-1176....

Still not for a Mach 1. Could it be used on a Mach 1? I am going to use mine on the Mach engine that is about to go in my car. I am a firm believer in them.
__________________
Stock 4.6 4V, Cobra Cammed: 11.63@117.84 - N/A
T45 / 4.56 / Drag Radials - N/A 4V Video
ModularSpeed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2009, 03:09 PM   #171
ModularSpeed
Mach Underhood
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: FL
Posts: 1,677
Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

I dont care what he thinks about them, nor anyone else on the intrawebs.

Never had a problem, hopefully never will. Even if I do, I will still use them. My odds on MANY different set-ups are probably still better then most people who DO have problems.

Did I mention, I am not a fan of the complete oil system design on these engines? I think I'll just blame Ford. Now go tell everyone!
__________________
Stock 4.6 4V, Cobra Cammed: 11.63@117.84 - N/A
T45 / 4.56 / Drag Radials - N/A 4V Video
ModularSpeed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2009, 03:17 PM   #172
Stopsign32v
Registered User
 
Stopsign32v's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Greenville, SC
Posts: 2,554
Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ModularSpeed View Post
I dont care what he thinks about them, nor anyone else on the intrawebs.

Never had a problem, hopefully never will. Even if I do, I will still use them. My odds on MANY different set-ups are probably still better then most people who DO have problems.

Did I mention, I am not a fan of the complete oil system design on these engines? I think I'll just blame Ford. Now go tell everyone!
I agree with you. I think its funny some certain people go on and on about things in a negative way yet those people never seem to explain in detail why he/she believes that. Just adds more BS to the pot I guess?
__________________
03 white Mach1

JLT RAI | 1/2 spacer | Catback | 4.56s

7.76@87.8mph
Stopsign32v is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2009, 03:36 PM   #173
Stopsign32v
Registered User
 
Stopsign32v's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Greenville, SC
Posts: 2,554
Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

Eh, bashing on March as a company because of something you heard is kinda silly. Then not explaining yourself and simply saying "ask someone else what they think....WINK" is even more juvenile.
__________________
03 white Mach1

JLT RAI | 1/2 spacer | Catback | 4.56s

7.76@87.8mph
Stopsign32v is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2009, 03:44 PM   #174
ModularSpeed
Mach Underhood
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: FL
Posts: 1,677
Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

Bill is trying to tell you, many years ago.....he amazingly discovered something.

He came to the conclusion that no manufacturers made an underdrive crank pulley (dampener) for a Mach 1.

He then found out that Paul S at PHP used a set on a Mach 1.....and had engine problems. I actually think I remember Paul doing a test on a Mach 1 years ago....running like high 11's with a couple bolt ons and some slicky poos. Maybe it was in a magazine? Didnt he use March pulleys on that car? I dont remember. I know they only gained a couple horse....but he tested it after he also installed gears and built rear I think.

Anyhow, I have seen low compression on a low mileage stock 4V, I have seen broken pistons in a stock tuned stock modular, I have seen a handful of people break the oil pump with stock dampener/stock flywheel-clutch.

It is a risk we take.....and I have pretty good odds I guess!
__________________
Stock 4.6 4V, Cobra Cammed: 11.63@117.84 - N/A
T45 / 4.56 / Drag Radials - N/A 4V Video
ModularSpeed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2009, 04:07 PM   #175
ModularSpeed
Mach Underhood
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: FL
Posts: 1,677
Re: Under Drive Pulleys..and the problems they cause.

****...I love my memory!

http://www.mach1registry.org/forums/...ght=paul+march

http://www.mustang50magazine.com/fea...h_1/index.html

I was pretty close!
__________________
Stock 4.6 4V, Cobra Cammed: 11.63@117.84 - N/A
T45 / 4.56 / Drag Radials - N/A 4V Video
ModularSpeed is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:14 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(c) 2002-2013 Mach1Registry.com

<