Recent Road Course Upgrades

[iudelt89]

Hey guys, have done 2 track days so far this year and added some additional mods for each of them since last season. I thought I would take this time to report on how the car did after adding the MM pan hard bar and MM LCA's between those two days. A full list of mods are in my sig for reference.

The improvement in handling the PHB and LCA's made was significant to say the least. The car was significantly more predictable, stable, and planted coming out of the corners. The increase in grip was obvious. It actually felt more neutral as well. I could get the back end to come around when I wanted, as opposed to the car pushing through every corner, giving me a great deal more control in both corner entry and particularly exits. In short these two mods provided me a great deal more confidence out on the track, which allowed me to go significantly faster.

I ran with the same group of guys both times. Without the LCA's and PHB I was completely unable to keep up with an e46 m3 with track tires, a 911 Carerra S, and a stock C6 vette. After adding the PHB and LCA's, I was able to catch and pass both the Carrera and the vette consistently (although it took a good deal of work), and was able to at least hang with the m3 for a lap or two after getting passed (track tires vs street tires isnt exactly a fair fight).

I would highly, highly recommend these parts to anyone who is looking to get their mach to handle properly. I recieved a number of compliments (many of them surprised) with how well the mach went through the corners. I meant to record at least a couple of the sessions but never got around to it. Next time.

[j rick kirby]

Your next big jump in performance can come from getting the same sized wheels and tires front and rear and at least getting the H&R race springs to replace those SS poser springs and be careful because the track day addiction bites hard. Right now there may still be time to save yourself. Once you cross the line the only thing that can save your a$$ is bankruptcy.

[iudelt89]

Originally Posted by j rick kirby

Your next big jump in performance can come from getting the same sized wheels and tires front and rear and at least getting the H&R race springs to replace those SS poser springs and be careful because the track day addiction bites hard. Right now there may still be time to save yourself. Once you cross the line the only thing that can save your a$$ is bankruptcy.

Yep, way ahead of ya, already got those things planned for next season. Gonna move back down to 17" wheels and run 275's all around. Swap out the blue springs for the reds, electric water pump, battery relocation and smaller size, headers, and possibly an engine oil cooler. The number one thing on my list is rebuilding the rear end though. My diff is noticeably worn and hurting me coming out of the corners (particularly hard rights). I have to really feather in the throttle to avoid wheelspin.

I've been hooked on this since before I ever did a single track day. Already seriously addicted, but I want to get into something more competetive than just HPDE events. I just wish there was an easier and cheaper way to get into racing. I would love to do some timed events at some point this summer, but I'm already running short on cash

[Matt H]

Originally Posted by j rick kirby

Your next big jump in performance can come from getting the same sized wheels and tires front and rear.

Interesting. Why is this? I don't like my current wheels and have debated a non staggered setup. Just wondering what the benefit here is.

OP - that's awesome man. In some cases I don't mind the push thru the corners feel. But I'm with you I'd prefer a more neutral feel.

[mikeracing]

Originally Posted by Matt H

Interesting. Why is this? I don't like my current wheels and have debated a non staggered setup. Just wondering what the benefit here is.

OP - that's awesome man. In some cases I don't mind the push thru the corners feel. But I'm with you I'd prefer a more neutral feel.

Our cars are notorious for understeer and and being nose heavy so when you combined it with smaller tires in the front you are exaggerating this effect

[NastyNate]

I have ran 275 alll the way around for years now.
Way better then staggered!

[rich1]

Originally Posted by iudelt89

Hey guys, have done 2 track days so far this year and added some additional mods for each of them since last season. I thought I would take this time to report on how the car did after adding the MM pan hard bar and MM LCA's between those two days. A full list of mods are in my sig for reference.

The improvement in handling the PHB and LCA's made was significant to say the least. The car was significantly more predictable, stable, and planted coming out of the corners. The increase in grip was obvious. It actually felt more neutral as well. I could get the back end to come around when I wanted, as opposed to the car pushing through every corner, giving me a great deal more control in both corner entry and particularly exits. In short these two mods provided me a great deal more confidence out on the track, which allowed me to go significantly faster.

I ran with the same group of guys both times. Without the LCA's and PHB I was completely unable to keep up with an e46 m3 with track tires, a 911 Carerra S, and a stock C6 vette. After adding the PHB and LCA's, I was able to catch and pass both the Carrera and the vette consistently (although it took a good deal of work), and was able to at least hang with the m3 for a lap or two after getting passed (track tires vs street tires isnt exactly a fair fight).

I would highly, highly recommend these parts to anyone who is looking to get their mach to handle properly. I recieved a number of compliments (many of them surprised) with how well the mach went through the corners. I meant to record at least a couple of the sessions but never got around to it. Next time.

The Panhardbar and Lower control arms were the 1st 2 mods I did to my Mach. The drive off the corners improves and straight line wheel -spin a lot less than stock too.Also.. the same size tires front and rear lets the tire temps be more equal to promote better handling.

[Nekasrof]

Originally Posted by iudelt89

Yep, way ahead of ya, already got those things planned for next season. Gonna move back down to 17" wheels and run 275's all around. Swap out the blue springs for the reds, electric water pump, battery relocation and smaller size, headers, and possibly an engine oil cooler. The number one thing on my list is rebuilding the rear end though. My diff is noticeably worn and hurting me coming out of the corners (particularly hard rights). I have to really feather in the throttle to avoid wheelspin.

I've been hooked on this since before I ever did a single track day. Already seriously addicted, but I want to get into something more competetive than just HPDE events. I just wish there was an easier and cheaper way to get into racing. I would love to do some timed events at some point this summer, but I'm already running short on cash

I'd skip the electric water pump. It's not necessary, so save the money. Upgrade to a larger radiator and a better thermostat. Also, have your hi/low speed fans temp-on changed, if they aren't already. Pull your bumper off and use some sheet aluminum and dam up around the opening so no air goes around it. The factory damming does nothing.
Obviously, gauges help to monitor what's up.

Rebuild the diff but consider 2 things:

A-Using a T2R diff. They put up with a ton of punishment and no clutches to replace. Being NA, you'll never break it, or shouldn't. If you're running HARD, you'll eat a cobra diff in no time at all. I was eating 1 per season of 8 races, which was less than 250 miles.
B-Start saving so you can change your UCAs out to something else for better articulation. You'll put power down earlier in a corner.

[iudelt89]

Thanks for chiming in. I was already planning on going with the T2R diff after doing a bunch of research, but what you just said has confirmed it. Looks like I better start saving now.

Is the water pump really not worth it? More consistent cooling and more horsepower sounds like a good deal to me. I havn't had any cooling issues yet, but that doesn't mean they won't happen. What do you recommend in terms of a radiator / thermo?

Full bolt ons is going to be pleanty of power for the track imo. If I end up wanting more power in the future I plan on keeping it N/A and doing cams/ported intake etc. I would really like the power curve to look more like the boss 302 with it pulling hard all the way to 7k. But for now, I wanna focus on handling and reliability. What I don't want is something cobbled together that I'm going to spend half my time tinkering with to get it to run right. I like to do things right the first time

[Nekasrof]

Originally Posted by iudelt89

Thanks for chiming in. I was already planning on going with the T2R diff after doing a bunch of research, but what you just said has confirmed it. Looks like I better start saving now.

Is the water pump really not worth it? More consistent cooling and more horsepower sounds like a good deal to me. I havn't had any cooling issues yet, but that doesn't mean they won't happen. What do you recommend in terms of a radiator / thermo?

Full bolt ons is going to be pleanty of power for the track imo. If I end up wanting more power in the future I plan on keeping it N/A and doing cams/ported intake etc. I would really like the power curve to look more like the boss 302 with it pulling hard all the way to 7k. But for now, I wanna focus on handling and reliability. What I don't want is something cobbled together that I'm going to spend half my time tinkering with to get it to run right. I like to do things right the first time

The below thermostat is pretty good. Its open at 170. I ran around Mustang Week with coolant temps never above 182 and mostly around 176 or so. I don't remember what my cooling fan settings are. Maybe low speed on at 170 and high speed at 175.
http://www.lethalperformance.com/03-...ng/thermostats

For a radiator, I use the Fluidyne. Been using it since '05. There are other manufacturers out there so I won't say this is the end-all or the best.

For a water pump, I just can't see the reason for changing. I don't believe it's more consistent at all. I think the money would be better spent on an upgraded radiator and damming up around that radiator.

I had to laugh at your comment of 'if I end up wanting more power in the future...'. Oh, YOU WILL. LOL!!! Believe me. Even for what I do, I keep wanting more because there are a few open wheel guys that get me at this track or that track. When you upgrade to more hp and that ONE guy passes you, you'll be like.....WTF!!!!!! The problem is that the checkbook is the limitation on hp.

Good luck on the track. Keep in mind to have fun. When it becomes like work, it's time to step back for a bit.

[iudelt89]

Originally Posted by Nekasrof

The below thermostat is pretty good. Its open at 170. I ran around Mustang Week with coolant temps never above 182 and mostly around 176 or so. I don't remember what my cooling fan settings are. Maybe low speed on at 170 and high speed at 175.
http://www.lethalperformance.com/03-...ng/thermostats

For a radiator, I use the Fluidyne. Been using it since '05. There are other manufacturers out there so I won't say this is the end-all or the best.

For a water pump, I just can't see the reason for changing. I don't believe it's more consistent at all. I think the money would be better spent on an upgraded radiator and damming up around that radiator.

I had to laugh at your comment of 'if I end up wanting more power in the future...'. Oh, YOU WILL. LOL!!! Believe me. Even for what I do, I keep wanting more because there are a few open wheel guys that get me at this track or that track. When you upgrade to more hp and that ONE guy passes you, you'll be like.....WTF!!!!!! The problem is that the checkbook is the limitation on hp.

Good luck on the track. Keep in mind to have fun. When it becomes like work, it's time to step back for a bit.

You know you're probably right about the power thing . Particularly when I move to track tires and have significantly more grip. I'll be sure to look into the thermo and radiator next year. The list never gets shorter .

What are you running in terms of sway bars? Can't seem to find a whole lot of info on what to run. Thanks for the input once again

[CO Mack]

I have a Fluidyne too, with a Canton overflow tank since the PO found the stocker didn't like the heat.

MM has an awesome rear anti-roll bar I put on my car.

http://www.maximummotorsports.com/st...21_100_101_227

[Nekasrof]

Originally Posted by iudelt89

You know you're probably right about the power thing . Particularly when I move to track tires and have significantly more grip. I'll be sure to look into the thermo and radiator next year. The list never gets shorter .

What are you running in terms of sway bars? Can't seem to find a whole lot of info on what to run. Thanks for the input once again

I'm using a Steeda front sway bar and a factory rear. I haven't delved into changing the rear sway bar yet. Until I can actually get on a track for T&T, I'm not changing. Too afraid of something being way different and winding up in trouble. If you're still using the factory UCAs, I'd be more concerned with finding a way to get the rear to articulate more before I changed the rear sway bar. And the flatter you can get the car to go thru a corner, on a road course, the better.

Power is addictive.....my checkbook does not like more power.

[mikeracing]

I have factory control arms with poly bushings in the rear
kyb agx adjustable shocks and struts

H&R race springs(per neskarof's reccommendation)

roush front sway bar
summit racing rear sway bar

and toyo RA1 tires ( very grippy but not great in the rain, continental DW best tire i have ever driven in the rain)

and the 17x9 with 275/40-17 (also neskarof's suggestin) made a huge difference

and i run PFC 97 race brake pads on track very fast upto temp and good modulation and no backing plates

[Derk]

Originally Posted by mikeracing

Our cars are notorious for understeer and and being nose heavy so when you combined it with smaller tires in the front you are exaggerating this effect

So...by going with a smaller tire on the rear, front end grip increases? Or does the loss of extra traction in the rear keep you from gaining the extra speed for the understeer into turns?

I don't fully I guess if I was on race tires and couldn't break a 275 loose it would be one thing. But as it sets now I can spin my Sumi Z 315s all over the AutoX course.

[Nekasrof]

Originally Posted by Derk

So...by going with a smaller tire on the rear, front end grip increases? Or does the loss of extra traction in the rear keep you from gaining the extra speed for the understeer into turns?

I don't fully I guess if I was on race tires and couldn't break a 275 loose it would be one thing. But as it sets now I can spin my Sumi Z 315s all over the AutoX course.

What size tires are you using???

[mikeracing]

the more rubber hitting the road the more effective traction you will have

but with the cars being front heavy you will have a tendancy to grease the front tires long before heating up the rears

and you want more front tire rubber to help with the understeer so you have more grip, and the rear being smaller will help with loosening up the rear

if you dont believe me its no hair off my back but i have seen a couple guys that race here that have horrible understeer into the corners with a 10.5 rear wheel and tires too match.

and i wasnt talking about throttle induced oversteer i was speaking too just mechanical cornering grip so if you were looking for the highest corner speed

on track now i am running 275/40-17 toyo RA1 tires for hsax and the extra rubber all the way around has made a huge difference in how the car handles and feels. i will have laptime updates next weekend if all works out

[Derk]

Originally Posted by Nekasrof

What size tires are you using???

315-35-17 and 245-35-17 Sumitomo HTR Z's.

I definitely need more tire up front. But right now the quadrabind plus stock shock/struts and H&R SS springs are more than the rear tires can handle.

Originally Posted by mikeracing

the more rubber hitting the road the more effective traction you will have

but with the cars being front heavy you will have a tendancy to grease the front tires long before heating up the rears

and you want more front tire rubber to help with the understeer so you have more grip, and the rear being smaller will help with loosening up the rear

if you dont believe me its no hair off my back but i have seen a couple guys that race here that have horrible understeer into the corners with a 10.5 rear wheel and tires too match.

and i wasnt talking about throttle induced oversteer i was speaking too just mechanical cornering grip so if you were looking for the highest corner speed

on track now i am running 275/40-17 toyo RA1 tires for hsax and the extra rubber all the way around has made a huge difference in how the car handles and feels. i will have laptime updates next weekend if all works out

I'm not saying it isn't true. But I haven't found anything that actually explains why a 315 on the rear makes a 275 on the front have less grip than the 275 on a the front of a car with a 275 on the rear.

Yes...I agree in a big swooping turn the first thing to give will be the front grip. But does that change depending on the size of the rear tire or is it the fact a larger rear tire will take more throttle and cause you to gain more speed sooner and therefore the front end loses grip quicker?

[jbrad88]

Any issue with exhaust relative to the pan hard bar install?

Given that you have our cat back on there...

[Nekasrof]

Originally Posted by Derk

315-35-17 and 245-35-17 Sumitomo HTR Z's.

I definitely need more tire up front. But right now the quadrabind plus stock shock/struts and H&R SS springs are more than the rear tires can handle.

Your suspension is not an issue right now. That staggered tire size is a HUGE issue.

Originally Posted by Derk

I'm not saying it isn't true. But I haven't found anything that actually explains why a 315 on the rear makes a 275 on the front have less grip than the 275 on a the front of a car with a 275 on the rear.

Yes...I agree in a big swooping turn the first thing to give will be the front grip. But does that change depending on the size of the rear tire or is it the fact a larger rear tire will take more throttle and cause you to gain more speed sooner and therefore the front end loses grip quicker?

The issue here is that with your current set up, not only is that 245 pencil sized, the 315 has way more grip than the front has. When you roll on the throttle and attempt to corner, the 315 is simply over powering the 245 and putting it into a push condition. You may as well have a patch of ice in front of the front tires ALL the time.

Tire size equalization is the very first thing that needs to be done regarding cornering ability. The weight bias is essentially 57/43(technically 56.7/43.3 - http://media.ford.com/article_displa...ticle_id=13563 ) which is not a good thing for handling.
So, going to a 275 all around is a huge help. Larger would be better, like a 295 or a 315. You could keep your 315s and add a couple up front, which would be REALLY cool. Change to a Hoosier A6 or a BFG R1S and you'd have a semi-race car or at least will be ready for an autox. If you go to an autox with that staggered set up you're using, you'll have your a$$ handed to you on a silver platter.

We're only talking tires here. There are a whole bunch of other mods needing to be done if you'd be interested in making the car really handle. But, for now, that staggered tire size must go. While Porsche and Corvette use a staggered tire size, the Mach 1 cannot support that difference AND handle.

[Nekasrof]

Originally Posted by jbrad88

Any issue with exhaust relative to the pan hard bar install?

My SLPs went around my MM PHB. But there was some slight contact and I don't remember if that was from racing or street driving. It may be that you'll need to do some adjusting to the exhaust a bit. Maybe bending here or denting there. Either way, with most aftermarket parts, be prepared to modify, especially if you start mixing different manufacturers.

[Derk]

Originally Posted by Nekasrof

Your suspension is not an issue right now. That staggered tire size is a HUGE issue.



The issue here is that with your current set up, not only is that 245 pencil sized, the 315 has way more grip than the front has. When you roll on the throttle and attempt to corner, the 315 is simply over powering the 245 and putting it into a push condition. You may as well have a patch of ice in front of the front tires ALL the time.

Tire size equalization is the very first thing that needs to be done regarding cornering ability. The weight bias is essentially 57/43(technically 56.7/43.3 - http://media.ford.com/article_displa...ticle_id=13563 ) which is not a good thing for handling.
So, going to a 275 all around is a huge help. Larger would be better, like a 295 or a 315. You could keep your 315s and add a couple up front, which would be REALLY cool. Change to a Hoosier A6 or a BFG R1S and you'd have a semi-race car or at least will be ready for an autox. If you go to an autox with that staggered set up you're using, you'll have your a$$ handed to you on a silver platter.

We're only talking tires here. There are a whole bunch of other mods needing to be done if you'd be interested in making the car really handle. But, for now, that staggered tire size must go. While Porsche and Corvette use a staggered tire size, the Mach 1 cannot support that difference AND handle.

So, if I went to 245s on rear I would cut better lap times because it would understeer less?

And as it sets right now, I spend more time trying to keep the rear in the rear. Between the 4.10s and the snap oversteer that's more than a handful. When I get back home I'll post up our last course layout and the areas that I had to manage oversteer and the areas that I had to manage understeer.

[jbrad88]

Originally Posted by Nekasrof

My SLPs went around my MM PHB. But there was some slight contact and I don't remember if that was from racing or street driving. It may be that you'll need to do some adjusting to the exhaust a bit. Maybe bending here or denting there. Either way, with most aftermarket parts, be prepared to modify, especially if you start mixing different manufacturers.

Agreed. I have found unless I stuck with motorsport stuff exclusively, I have had to do some tweaking when mixing and matching.

I asked mostly because he has our cat-back on his car, and I was curious because of that.

[Nekasrof]

Originally Posted by Derk

So, if I went to 245s on rear I would cut better lap times because it would understeer less?

And as it sets right now, I spend more time trying to keep the rear in the rear. Between the 4.10s and the snap oversteer that's more than a handful. When I get back home I'll post up our last course layout and the areas that I had to manage oversteer and the areas that I had to manage understeer.

It would understeer less, yes. However, the 4.10s will hurt you now unless you really concentrate on rolling into the throttle and not mashing it.

The snap oversteer you are experiencing is from 1 of 2 things: Either the rear tires are grabbing as your speed increases or you're letting off the throttle and they're grabbing. I'll guess you're letting off the throttle while sliding. NORMALLY you don't get a snap over steer when you stay on the throttle in a corner. It's a learned skill NOT to let off while sliding. When the back end is coming around, you tend to want to let off to get things to settle down. Unless you are seriously about to hit something or pointing 90 degrees off the direction of travel, it's normally a good idea to stay on the throttle and counter steer. This is a difficult thing to learn.
Again, the 315s will have way more grip than the 245s. As soon as you let off, you're going in the other direction.
By the way, in-car video is your friend. There are MANY times where I could say "I was doing X here an doing Y there" and my in-car told me "NO YOU WEREN'T!!!". It's an awesome tool for skill building.

Originally Posted by jbrad88

Agreed. I have found unless I stuck with motorsport stuff exclusively, I have had to do some tweaking when mixing and matching.

I asked mostly because he has our cat-back on his car, and I was curious because of that.

Adding a PHB will take out back end sway. BUT, it'll also induce bind.

[Matt H]

I'm becoming somewhat confused here..

Is the bane of mustang handling more so result of lack of front grip and the resulting under steer? Or the quadra bind 4 link?

I was always under the impression the main issue at hand is the factory 4 link. But if under steer already is an issue, which I am now recognizing, it would seem increasing rear grip before front would be a mistake.