Modded Mach steering feel and road manners

[Matt H]

Trying to figure out if perhaps I'm expecting too much out of my car.

Bought a low mileage (19k @ the time) 03 TR may last year. I researched, saved, and laid out a plan. I got the MM FLSFC welded in last summer. MM bilstien coilovers this spring, along with a (used) 03 cobra rack and MM solid steering shaft.

I'm not happy with mostly the steering. The car has tons of grip in the turns compared to stock. But the feel still is kinda numb. The steering is responsive, but its so light and not very awe inspiring. Handling wise I'd really like to make it better, but the ride is pretty firm as it is. Compliant, but firm.

MM coilovers, solid shaft, 03 cobra rack, 255 tire, --- what will improve my steering? Looks like the rack has firmer bushings (red)

How much further can I improve the suspension without killing my ride? I'm running a 375 spring front, 225 rear.

Sorry long post, I'm just out of ideas.

[CO Mack]

What is it exactly you don't like about the steering? The effort is too low, car doesn't turn in fast enough, don't feel enough in the road etc etc?

How are your tie rods and ends, perfect?

Your alignment will play a big role here too. Do you have MM CC plates and where are you aligned?

[Matt H]

I do wish there was more effort. My 2002 is300 feels better (to me) as does my brothers s2000 and my buddies evo x. Granted, this is a mustang, but all those cars are stock or less modified than mine.

It doesn't have excessive play. But I'll do a shake down on the front next time I have it on the lift. I would like the turn in to be more responsive. And the effort to be greater. And I want it to feel more solid in the turns. It does NOT feel broken or malfunctioning. IMO it's just underperforming.

I aligned it to MM specs after all mods. Last done 3/9.

Camber -.5 L -.6 R
Caster 5.0 L 4.6 R
Toe .05 in L .06 in R

I think these are very conservative. But this isn't a track car. I'd like to get atleast 15-20k out of my tires. That would be 3-4 yrs for me.

[mikeracing]

Originally Posted by Matt H

I do wish there was more effort. My 2002 is300 feels better (to me) as does my brothers s2000 and my buddies evo x. Granted, this is a mustang, but all those cars are stock or less modified than mine.

It doesn't have excessive play. But I'll do a shake down on the front next time I have it on the lift. I would like the turn in to be more responsive. And the effort to be greater. And I want it to feel more solid in the turns. It does NOT feel broken or malfunctioning. IMO it's just underperforming.

I aligned it to MM specs after all mods. Last done 3/9.

Camber -.5 L -.6 R
Caster 5.0 L 4.6 R
Toe .05 in L .06 in R

I think these are very conservative. But this isn't a track car. I'd like to get atleast 15-20k out of my tires. That would be 3-4 yrs for me.

if you run toe out instead of toe in it will help with your turn in too much and you have excessive tire wear and gets twitchy on the street

[machdude]

If you want increased road feel and a stiffer steering wheel you're going to need more caster in your alignment. When I had my 65 mustang aligned I specifically asked for a lot of positive caster (i can't remember the setting) either way the tech didn't listen to me since he said caster had no affect on tire wear. I drove off and was greatly disappointed. I went back and demanded the settings I asked for and soon after that the car was on rails with great steering response and feel.

I would increase caster and camber. You'll feel the difference

[NastyNate]

Did you put new tie rods in with the steering rack?

[weaver]

Poly bushings in front a-arms and Maximum Motorsports solid aluminum rack bushings.

[Matt H]

Originally Posted by machdude

If you want increased road feel and a stiffer steering wheel you're going to need more caster in your alignment. When I had my 65 mustang aligned I specifically asked for a lot of positive caster (i can't remember the setting) either way the tech didn't listen to me since he said caster had no affect on tire wear. I drove off and was greatly disappointed. I went back and demanded the settings I asked for and soon after that the car was on rails with great steering response and feel.

I would increase caster and camber. You'll feel the difference

Sounds like good news! If I can squeeze it in today, I'll pick the mach up after work and tweak the alignment a bit and report back. What do you recommend for settings? I was thing 6* caster, -1.5* camber and .02 toe out based on responses.

I swapped over the outer tie rods from my factory rack to the cobra unit, but I'm running the existing inners. I will upgrade the rack bushings to the aluminum units if I can get the feel down. I haven't done them because its not play I'm concerned with as I really don't have much. As far as a arms go I was considering the MM units.. I don't need the spring perch anymore.

[Machy uno]

3 things i would suggest in addition to the new alignment specs...

1. The tires don't stay on level ground with each other due to all the top end movement under aggressive loading. STB should help. I have a 3 point which I'd recommend, but I'm sure a 2 point would be a significant improvement as well. In addition, for actually steering

2. I would agree with weaver on MM solid aluminum rack bushings. Those take a lot of unknown out of the steering and fairly easy to install.

3. Lastly, any back suspension mods? If its completely stock in the back your front is having to work to hard. Dont rule thos out of the equation as it could be your issue. Make sure your shocks match the front. A good set of lower control arms will tighten up the back as well and give the car a better turn in feel. This reduced movement in the rear translates to a better steering feel.

FYI, you can get these to hang with much more exotic cars in the corners. Last time I was at a track I surprised many people by passing them in the turns, something mustangs don't often do to Vette's, M3's, 350z's, etc. I have a full tubular MM kmember kit, MM coil overs, FLSFC, 3 point STB, koni shocks, CC plates, poly bushings in the front, solid steering rack, MM aluminum rack bushings, rear MM heavy duty lower controls, and a very aggressive alignment for racing. The shop that put the alignment knew what I wanted as they deal with race cars. They did tell me not to drive it on the street or my tires wouldn't last.... Meh

-Darren

[machdude]

The more aggressive alignment will definitely change the handling.

These are the specs I used when I aligned my Mach 1: http://www.steeda.com/store/uploads/...9-04-mus-1.pdf

Notice on caster it says maximum positive.

Another link with some specs: http://www.moddedmustangs.com/forums...endations.html

Keep us updated.

[Matt H]

Originally Posted by Machy uno

3 things i would suggest in addition to the new alignment specs...
.

3. Lastly, any back suspension mods? If its completely stock in the back your front is having to work to hard. Dont rule thos out of the equation as it could be your issue. Make sure your shocks match the front. A good set of lower control arms will tighten up the back as well and give the car a better turn in feel. This reduced movement in the rear translates to a better steering feel.


-Darren

Rear coilover conversion. Bilstien sport valved. 225 spring rate with stock 4 link. The rear lowers were high on my list. So was the 3 pt STB. I want the MM unit just not sure which one will fit. See how the alignment changes things before I buy any more parts.

Thanks for all the help so far guys.

[CO Mack]

Yep, get it aligned to some more aggressive specs. Also make sure your tie rods and ends are good before buying more parts.

We bought an S2000 new and had it for 3 years...you're never going to get your Mach to feel like it so don't be disappointed!

[Machy uno]

Originally Posted by Matt H

Rear coilover conversion. Bilstien sport valved. 225 spring rate with stock 4 link. The rear lowers were high on my list. So was the 3 pt STB. I want the MM unit just not sure which one will fit. See how the alignment changes things before I buy any more parts.

Thanks for all the help so far guys.

Sounds like you have a good set up int the back for sure then. Let us know how the new alignment works out. Hopefully that gives you the feeling you're looking for.

[OWmach1]

Originally Posted by Matt H

I do wish there was more effort. My 2002 is300 feels better (to me) as does my brothers s2000 and my buddies evo x.

This gives it away.
IS300... its a Lexus they're comfortable and feel great
s2000... that little pile of turd feels like a go-kart around the track (I apologize to any of the lovers)
Evo X... this car feels amazing around corners it's just built for corners out the factory

sra mustang..sorta for drag racing.. I suggest a IRS, but even then It's a new edge mustang & they're not the greatest handling cars in my opinion and not so balanced well factory like a bmw M3 50/50 weight distribution. My car has a few suspension mods & I can tell you polyurethane front control arm bushings helped the car feel a bit more stable around the corners. I also heard full length sub frames are a must to invest in.. i haven't ordered one yet, but i will.

edit: I just saw the MM FLSFC mod you posted up

[Matt H]

Never got the chance to align the car tonight like I wanted. Maybe tomorrow before lunch.

Guys I know the mach isn't a real sports car. And I'm not really expecting it to be. I say steering because of all the things I'd like to improve how the steering feels is what bothers me most.

I feel like I have a pretty decent idea of where the grip level is. No, I can't be certain because I've never pushed it all the way. But it's pretty grippy. I'd just like it to FEEL nice to drive. Over 2k in suspension mods on this car with 24k mi and it only feels that way if I plow through corners. Even then its just not giving me the confidence I was looking for. Hoping that some alignment tweaks help out. I've been wowed by alignments in the past. We'll see.

[TRmachwon]

Our cars aren't known for their great steering feel... If you don't already have solid rack bushings, start there.

6* caster with stock K-member/A-arms might be asking a bit much.

AT LEAST -1.5* camber, preferably more

Slight toe out will make for amazing turn-in. Not so amazing on the tire wear though. If you're getting it re-aligned I'd have the toe zeroed out. Also, set the caster even on both sides.

At the end of the day you're driving a car with a chassis designed in 1978. The S2000 and Evo X are literally DECADES further ahead and were designed with a greater focus on handling. Mods can only take our car so far.

[mikeracing]

Originally Posted by TRmachwon

Our cars aren't known for their great steering feel... If you don't already have solid rack bushings, start there.

6* caster with stock K-member/A-arms might be asking a bit much.

AT LEAST -1.5* camber, preferably more

Slight toe out will make for amazing turn-in. Not so amazing on the tire wear though. If you're getting it re-aligned I'd have the toe zeroed out. Also, set the caster even on both sides.

At the end of the day you're driving a car with a chassis designed in 1978. The S2000 and Evo X are literally DECADES further ahead and were designed with a greater focus on handling. Mods can only take our car so far.

actaully 0 toe can make any play in the steering obnoxious thats why they say .25-.5 toe in.

but the same .25-.5 toe out will have the same amount of toe out will have the axact same amount of wear

the extra wear you may see will look like camber wear on the inside but it will hardly be noticeable

[Tommy Z]

I'm definitely no expert on any of this, but I think the best place to start would be with solid rack bushings and a manual and/or quick ratio rack. Hope you get it handling like you want!

[Matt H]

Originally Posted by Tommy Z

I'm definitely no expert on any of this, but I think the best place to start would be with solid rack bushings and a manual and/or quick ratio rack. Hope you get it handling like you want!

It does look like the solid rack bushings will be needed. I've done some research on rack options. I already swapped in the cobra unit. My issue with the aftermarket is not many people have done this and they aren't cheap. I don't want to convert to manual steering.

I played with the alignment some. Got a touch more camber (still less than -1.0), added about 1* caster both sides (5.5-6.0*)and set the toe -.01 both sides. Turn in is deffinately more responsive and the steering weight is better in the turns. Downside to this is I feel the squirm in the steering more, so solid rack bushings will be heading in. I ran out of time on the alignment rack -- to get more aggressive I'll have to flip the plates.

[Machy uno]

Originally Posted by Matt H

Guys I know the mach isn't a real sports car. And I'm not really expecting it to be. I say steering because of all the things I'd like to improve how the steering feels is what bothers me

BS it ain't a real sports car. It can compete with the kinds of cars you listed with the right mods and you're well on your way. Plus it's got loads more torque then any of those so you should be able to out pull them out of the turns. The two platforms you're looking at are night and day difference but that doesn't mean they can't be competing. You start with a better drivetrain and build the suspension and they vice versa.

[Matt H]

Originally Posted by Machy uno

BS it ain't a real sports car. It can compete with the kinds of cars you listed with the right mods and you're well on your way. Plus it's got loads more torque then any of those so you should be able to out pull them out of the turns. The two platforms you're looking at are night and day difference but that doesn't mean they can't be competing. You start with a better drivetrain and build the suspension and they vice versa.

But it's not. Never said however that it cannot compete. Or dominate on the track. Sports car however it is not. The only car I listed earlier that technically is would be the s2000. Of course that's arguable, but we would be getting seriously off topic.

I started this thread to get some guidance. I wanted to know if my goals for this car are achievable and what it will take to get there. I have zero interest in any type of drag racing. So far, the slightly more aggressive alignment has helped some. Ill proceed with the solid rack bushings and go from there. Ideally my final suspension build would be a MM kmember front and IRS swapped rear. One step at a time.

[TRmachwon]

Originally Posted by Machy uno

BS it ain't a real sports car. It can compete with the kinds of cars you listed with the right mods and you're well on your way. Plus it's got loads more torque then any of those so you should be able to out pull them out of the turns. The two platforms you're looking at are night and day difference but that doesn't mean they can't be competing. You start with a better drivetrain and build the suspension and they vice versa.

Compete with an S2k or Evo X? In raw lap times possibly. But let's not kid ourselves here. The Mustang (especially 79-04 chassis) is not a sports car. It does not have the handling finesse and balance of an s2k/miata/BRZ/M3/whatever else you want to compare it to. No matter how fast you make it, it's still akin to performing surgery with a butcher knife.

[CO Mack]

Originally Posted by TRmachwon

Compete with an S2k or Evo X? In raw lap times possibly. But let's not kid ourselves here. The Mustang (especially 79-04 chassis) is not a sports car. It does not have the handling finesse and balance of an s2k/miata/BRZ/M3/whatever else you want to compare it to. No matter how fast you make it, it's still akin to performing surgery with a butcher knife.

I agree with what you're saying, but the Evo X isn't really a sports car either, not like your other list. I've had an 08 STI and an 04 S2000. (The STI and Evo are definitely much more refined than a Fox or SN95, but it's still just a fast sedan.)

For those arguing the Mustang is a sports car, drive a car like an S2000 or Porsche and you'll know what a purpose built sports car feels like.

I've shown my *** to true sports cars in Mustangs, but that doesn't make it one. It's a pony car. No matter how much trick stuff you bolt on, it is always going to be a pony car. Steering feel is one of the most obvious manifestations of the difference no matter how hard you are driving it. There are ways to make it much better in the Mustang, but it's never going to have that telepathic feel.

[iudelt89]

On a slightly different, but related note, does anyone know where I can get an FR500 steering wheel? Been looking all over the place for one for several months and can't seem to find any that aren't $500 or more

BTW, to stay on topic, I put poly steering rack bushings in from AM. Made a somewhat noticeable difference on the track in terms of feedback, but you prob won't notice it very much during just daily driving though.

[not a gt]

Originally Posted by machdude

The more aggressive alignment will definitely change the handling.

These are the specs I used when I aligned my Mach 1: http://www.steeda.com/store/uploads/...9-04-mus-1.pdf

Notice on caster it says maximum positive.

Another link with some specs: http://www.moddedmustangs.com/forums...endations.html

Keep us updated.

Regarding these settings, I have a stock front end with KYB AGX struts and I am in the process of cutting 1/2 a coil with top and bottom ISO. Can I use the specs listed in the modded mustang forum and now that I am running a 275 40 17 tire up front, what would be the best settings if it isn't the ones listed?( General DD with very occassional strip). Thanks!!!

Remember, stock, I don't have any CC plates or anything else like that, figured cutting only 1/2 coil wouldn't have to go that route, will cut less if I have to, but with the settings given can they be done without plates and other stuff( can tell I am NOT a suspension man!!).